baroque string mute?

[Feliks P.]

hello,
I am interested in all informations about early mutes for violins. I am
looking for some early paintings with mutes, text informations and all
things in this topic.

Adam

[Oliver Webber]

Hello,
I know that Vivaldi (and maybe others?) called for "piombi" in several
of his works, implying that mutes made of lead were used. It is very
easy to make a mute from lead as it is so soft, the sound is also
excellent.
I don't know of any other specific information but am also interested
in this so I will keep looking!

Regards,
Oliver

Post by Feliks P.
hello,
I am interested in all informations about early mutes for violins. I am
looking for some early paintings with mutes, text informations and all
things in this topic.
Adam

[Arthur Ness]

In one of my Vivaldi scores the term is "con sordino." Do you mean that Vivaldi used the term "piombo?" Early mutes were sometimes made of metal so I do not doubt what you write. Is it possible in my Malipiero score the term was changed from piombi to sordino?

Bach used mutes for the strings in his harpsichord concerto no. 1 in d minor. If memory serves. Or perhaps in the Cantata 188 version. I understand mutes were used in the early 17th century, so they have been with use for quite a long time.

ajn

"Oliver Webber" <***@aol.com> wrote in message news:***@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hello,
I know that Vivaldi (and maybe others?) called for "piombi" in several
of his works, implying that mutes made of lead were used. It is very
easy to make a mute from lead as it is so soft, the sound is also
excellent.
I don't know of any other specific information but am also interested
in this so I will keep looking!

Regards,
Oliver

Post by Feliks P.
hello,
I am interested in all informations about early mutes for violins. I am
looking for some early paintings with mutes, text informations and all
things in this topic.
Adam

[Zubr]

I am interested in this topic because I am a baroque violin player and I
am looking for historical mute. Because I can't find any information
about shape, material (now I know lead was used) and what about wood? I
also can't find manufacturer which makes things like that to buy it. A
am able to make it myself but have not enough information. Please send
all news you have in this topic if you have some paintings check if
there is something with the mute. Of course I know it was in use I am
just looking for info how does it look?! Maybe someone has one?

AP

Post by Arthur Ness
In one of my Vivaldi scores the term is "con sordino." Do you mean that
Vivaldi used the term "piombo?" Early mutes were sometimes made of metal
so I do not doubt what you write. Is it possible in my Malipiero score
the term was changed from piombi to sordino?
Bach used mutes for the strings in his harpsichord concerto no. 1 in d
minor. If memory serves. Or perhaps in the Cantata 188 version. I
understand mutes were used in the early 17th century, so they have been
with use for quite a long time.
ajn
Hello,
I know that Vivaldi (and maybe others?) called for "piombi" in several
of his works, implying that mutes made of lead were used. It is very
easy to make a mute from lead as it is so soft, the sound is also
excellent.
I don't know of any other specific information but am also interested
in this so I will keep looking!
Regards,
Oliver

Post by Feliks P.
hello,
I am interested in all informations about early mutes for

violins. I am

Post by Feliks P.
looking for some early paintings with mutes, text informations

and all

Post by Feliks P.
things in this topic.
Adam

[Roland Hutchinson]

A citation in the Oxford English Dictionary suggests a couple of more
possiblilties for the material:

"c1779 W. WARING tr. Rousseau's Dict. Mus. 384 Sourdine, a small
instrument of copper or silver, which is applied to the bridge of a violin
or violincello, to render the sounds weaker."

It is interesting to note that the general trend over the course of the
years seems to have been from heavier to lighter materials: lead, copper
and silver, wood, rubber and plastic. I wouldn't want to put too much faith
in this observation without a lot more data, though! (There are also 2O-th
century designs that combine metal and plastic: I'm thinking of the
permanently-attached Roth-Sihon "roller" type that seems to have largely
fallen out of favor at the moment.)

One thing I _have_ noticed is that the currently popular synthetic(?) rubber
mutes don't mute as much as the old-fashioned three-prong wooden ones
(which are still readily available, though I can't recall having seen
anyone use one on a modern-setup instrument in at least thirty years).

[John Howell]

Post by Roland Hutchinson
One thing I _have_ noticed is that the currently popular synthetic(?) rubber
mutes don't mute as much as the old-fashioned three-prong wooden ones
(which are still readily available, though I can't recall having seen
anyone use one on a modern-setup instrument in at least thirty years).

I haven't done an A/B comparison, but my impression is that the
rubber mutes do mute as much as the wooden ones, but that the sound
is rather different. I have wooden ones in my cases, and I prefer
that sound, but seldom or never use them. They require more time to
futz with and have a tendency to fall on the floor during page turns.
And composers and arrangers have steadily allowed less and less time
to engage or remove mutes, assuming the more efficient on-board ones
will be used.

The same phenomenon--convenience--can be seen in the widespread use
of non-transposing mutes for horn instead of the traditional
hand-stopping. They are two very different sounds, and as a former
horn player I much prefer the intense buzz of hand stopping, but
there you are. Some Broadway show books draw a distinction between
the two, going for two different sounds.

John


--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox [phone] Fax [phone]
(mailto:***@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

[Oliver Webber]

Post by Arthur Ness
In one of my Vivaldi scores the term is "con sordino." Do you mean that Vivaldi used the term "piombo?" Early mutes were sometimes made of metal so I do not doubt what you write. Is it possible in my Malipiero score the term was changed from piombi to sordino?

Yes, entirely possible. I think you'll find that in facsimile editions
the word "piombi" is used, although I can't remember exactly where!

Post by Arthur Ness
Bach used mutes for the strings in his harpsichord concerto no. 1 in d minor. If memory serves. Or perhaps in the Cantata 188 version. I understand mutes were used in the early 17th century, so they have been with use for quite a long time.
ajn

Yes, I don't think there's any doubt about this; many 17th and 18th
century composers called for them (e.g. Purcell in the Fairy Queen,
Bach in the Magnificat, Handel in many places (especially in arias
involving strings with flutes) and others mentioned Lully and
Mersenne). There's less evidence about the materials used to make them,
which is why Vivaldi's instruction is so interesting.

Regards,
Oliver Webber

[Bruce Sinclair]

Post by Oliver Webber
Hello,
I know that Vivaldi (and maybe others?) called for "piombi" in several
of his works, implying that mutes made of lead were used. It is very
easy to make a mute from lead as it is so soft, the sound is also
excellent.
I don't know of any other specific information but am also interested
in this so I will keep looking!

I have a pewter mute that was made for me, cast from a mold of a wooden
one.It is wonderful ...a really neat and very mellow sound about as muted
again as the wooden one. :)
I would think that lead would be too soft ... perhaps you can persuade
someone to make you a pewter one ?







Bruce


-------------------------------------
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
- George Bernard Shaw
Cynic, n: a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.
- Ambrose Bierce

Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)

[Zubr]

Post by Bruce Sinclair
I have a pewter mute that was made for me, cast from a mold of a wooden
one.It is wonderful ...a really neat and very mellow sound about as muted
again as the wooden one. :)
I would think that lead would be too soft ... perhaps you can persuade
someone to make you a pewter one ?

Could you send us a photo?

AP

[Bruce Sinclair]

Post by Zubr

Post by Bruce Sinclair
I have a pewter mute that was made for me, cast from a mold of a wooden
one.It is wonderful ...a really neat and very mellow sound about as muted
again as the wooden one. :)
I would think that lead would be too soft ... perhaps you can persuade
someone to make you a pewter one ?

Could you send us a photo?

Probably ... where to ? It probably won't help much though - the design of
mine is "modern" (as the wooden one used for the mold to cast it was modern
:) ).
The point I was trying to make was that pewter would be superior to lead I
would think ... and not as toxic :)



Bruce


-------------------------------------
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
- George Bernard Shaw
Cynic, n: a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.
- Ambrose Bierce

Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)

[Beth Diane Garfinkel]

"Night's air" from Purcell's Fairy Queen is accompanied by Violin I,
Violin II, and Viola, all with "sourdines." If that helps any.

Beth