Tempo of Bach's Courantes

[r***@yahoo.com]

Hi:

I have a question regarding the tempo of Bach's Courantes in his
English Suites for keyboard. First, I would like to distinguish the
French Courante from the Italian Corrente - in these examples I'm
referring to the French Courante, which I understand to be slower.

In the book "Dance and the Music of J.S. Bach," by Meredith Little, I
read the following:

"The French courante was variously described as serious and solemn
(Dupont, Masson, Walther), noble and grand (P. Rameau, Compan), hopeful
(Mattheson), majestic (Quantz) and earnest (Turk). All these qualties
imply a slow tempo. In fact, the courante is the slowest of all dances
with three "temps" (beats) to the measure, followed in order of
increasing speed by the sarabande, passacaille, chaconne, minuet, and
passepied...."

And while some courantes are faster than others, I take from this
passage that the courante is still a slow dance, slower than the
sarabande.

My question is therefore, why is the courante always played faster than
the sarabande in every English Suite recording / performance I've ever
heard, and why is the courante usually played pretty quickly? If
Little is correct, EVERYONE has it all wrong. There must be a reason
all these performers are playing it quickly. Further, doesn't the
standard 3/2 meter imply a slower tempo? I believe a 3/8 tempo implies
a faster tempo than a 3/4, but does this relationship apply to 3/2 vs.
3/4?

Any information about these tempi and meter would be greatly
appreciated.

Best wishes,
Justin

[Flavio FB]

To be sincere, Justin, I always thought the Sarabande to be slower than the
Courante...
I don't know why, though!

Flavio

[John Howell]

Post by Flavio FB
To be sincere, Justin, I always thought the Sarabande to be slower than the
Courante...
I don't know why, though!

I must have missed the original post, but it is true that the
Sarabande was described as the slowest dance in the high baroque
suites. The problem with Courante tempo is that the dance steps for
neither the renaissance nor the baroque courante are really known or
understood, but in the renaissance dance suites, at least, the
courante was the faster of the dance pair allemande-courante.

John


--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox [phone] Fax [phone]
(mailto:***@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

[Flavio FB]

100% agreed, John.

[Warren Steel]

Post by John Howell
I must have missed the original post, but it is true that the
Sarabande was described as the slowest dance in the high baroque
suites. The problem with Courante tempo is that the dance steps for
neither the renaissance nor the baroque courante are really known or
understood, but in the renaissance dance suites, at least, the
courante was the faster of the dance pair allemande-courante.

In the original post, Justin quoted from Meredith Little:
"The French courante was variously described as serious and solemn
(Dupont, Masson, Walther), noble and grand (P. Rameau, Compan), hopeful
(Mattheson), majestic (Quantz) and earnest (Turk). All these qualties
imply a slow tempo. In fact, the courante is the slowest of all dances
with three "temps" (beats) to the measure, followed in order of
increasing speed by the sarabande, passacaille, chaconne, minuet, and
passepied...."
and commented:
And while some courantes are faster than others, I take from this
passage that the courante is still a slow dance, slower than the
sarabande.

My own take on this:
Certainly the Sarabande underwent a marked deceleration in the
second half of the 17c. In the early 17c it resembled the
chaconne in being erotic and vivacious, fiery and suggestive.
Many guitar sarabandes, and keyboard examples by L. Couperin
and Froberger, work well at a rather fast tempo. Froberger's
suites, which appear in the order A-C-G-S in the manuscript,
were reordered in publication as A-C-S-G, perhaps reflecting
the slower tempo of the sarabande.

The later sarabande, as a solo theatrical dance, retained
the erotic associations, but became very slow and insinuating.
As an example, in Rameau's Pygmalion, the statue of Venus,
immediately on coming to life, is instructed in several dance
movements by Graces who take her hand. But upon recognizing
the sculptor that created her, she leaves her attendants and
performs a slow sarabande to charm him and express her
awakening love.

As a devotee of 17c music, I am somewhat puzzled by Bach's
keyboard courantes, which seem to lack the rhythmic grace of
their French models, and be too filled with 8th and even 16th
notes. But one should remember that the courante was no longer
danced, although the basic step or 'pas de courante' was still
taught as an element in dance performance.

[John Howell]

Post by Warren Steel
As a devotee of 17c music, I am somewhat puzzled by Bach's
keyboard courantes, which seem to lack the rhythmic grace of
their French models, and be too filled with 8th and even 16th
notes. But one should remember that the courante was no longer
danced, although the basic step or 'pas de courante' was still
taught as an element in dance performance.

I wonder. Do we know that the courante, in fact, was no longer
danced in Bach's time? Either as a social dance or as a theatrical
dance? I would think that the answer lies not in keyboard suites,
but in the operas of the time, and in particular the French operas.
I don't know the answer, but perhaps someone else does.

Putnam Aldrich, late of Stanford University, was adamant in teaching
that unless one knows the dance steps one does not know the character
or tempo of the dance. The courante is confusing, going back to
Arbeau, because the step is described in duple while the music is
notated in triple, but for most of the dances the tempo only works
within a rather narrow range. There is no question that the high
baroque sarabande was the slowest dance in the repertoire, taken at a
tempo that is the slowest one can maintain balance on the tiptoes of
one foot without falling over. Do we actually know the baroque
courante steps?

John


--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox [phone] Fax [phone]
(mailto:***@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

[John Howell]

Post by r***@yahoo.com
My question is therefore, why is the courante always played faster than
the sarabande in every English Suite recording / performance I've ever
heard, and why is the courante usually played pretty quickly? If
Little is correct, EVERYONE has it all wrong. There must be a reason
all these performers are playing it quickly. Further, doesn't the
standard 3/2 meter imply a slower tempo? I believe a 3/8 tempo implies
a faster tempo than a 3/4, but does this relationship apply to 3/2 vs.
3/4?

In general, yes. But the sarabande is generally accepted by dancers
as the slowest dance in triple time. I'd apply Occam's razor: if
Little is in the minority in this, Little is probably wrong, pending
additional research or on how convincing his/her arguments are.

john


--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox [phone] Fax [phone]
(mailto:***@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html